- Status update + input needed

It's been a few days, so let me fill everyone in on what's up. Lyn and I have been talking to a programmer about the project, and he's going to take a look and see if he's interested. If so, we'll start looking at how to prepare for a Kickstarter campaign, but that's not solidified yet.

Instead I want to talk to you guys about something even further away. In the relatively near future, we need to try and decide on the business model for the eventual relaunched game. The bottom line here is that the game has to make money, but I don't want to do anything to upset the balance of the game or the players. There are two ideas we're currently kicking around, and feedback or other suggestions would be helpful.

The first is a model similar to what Randy used in the past, where players would buy subscriptions to the game for a set length of time. However, unlike in the past, there would not be a full free version offered as an alternative. We'd give everyone who signed up some time - two weeks, let's say - of free play, after which they'd be forced to subscribe to continue. As a consequence, this would offer a more unified play experience: in the past the free version was substantially different - lacking the fluctuating kingdom, events, and so forth - whereas this would offer an exact sample of whatever the final product becomes.

The second is what's known as a "freemium" model. Games that operate with this plan are completely free to play, except for when they're not. Rather than charging to play, this would allow players to use real-world money to purchase in-game things. The disadvantage is that this walks a very fine line, and it's very difficult to create freemium content that players will want to buy that won't give them a major advantage over non-paying players.

So, there's the news. What say you?

Free to play. This is by far becoming one of the most popular concepts in gaming now. League of Legends is the BIGGEST online game... bigger than WoW because it is free to play. They make their money on non game impacting sales. They (and I) agree that if you can use money to buy things it shouldn't be to give yourself an advantage over those who cannot afford to buy shinies. Even as I say that i could see selling small packs of cards with maybe up to uncommon rarity (like MtG). Cards that would help build a deck but not be game changers in themselves. League of Legends sale the new champions and different skins that are available for all the champions. But if you are like me and are monetarily challenged then you can earn in game "money" to buy champions. And even if you don't buy them all you still get opportunities to play them thanks to there being a "free" rotation of the champions you can use. Sooner or later you can play everyone.

There is another preemium model out there where they sell the game for a small fee (usually on an app... $.99-$3.99) with free updates etc but also offers other paid for services. Pocket God is done like this. And it is one of the most popular games out there now.

I think the biggest problem we will have this go around will be competing in an instant gratification world. Many of these games nowadays are short quick and simple. And you either win or lose in that same quick manner. As we all know SW often is not a quick process. However just winning was enough for most of us. Or having a great match. And then the victory mig was always nice as well. We have to make sure that win or lose the game will keep people's attention. Possibly offer an in game currency that you receive. A lot on win... half as much with a loss. That way people with not as much money can still purchase in game content... just slower. Biggest thing is making sure to make it so money bought services has little impact the played game... i.e. he who has the most money can't just just buy the best deck.

But another thing is content would have to be put out on a regular basis. To keep the game fresh and evolving. In a way almost like M:tG. Up population sizes and see where we go. That was always one of the things I enjoyed doing... creating a deck out of all the chaos.

I like the idea of doing something similar to League of Legends, like Neo was talking about. He's been playing that game for 2-3 years and never really seemed to get tired of it (to my frequent dismay).

I've also thought that a good idea would be do the game much like it used to be, but instead of the free side population being fixed, change the options every so often. I really think that if you allow people to play for free, they'll eventually want to buy a membership. But people who can't afford membership shouldn't be basically denied the chance to play.

I know there is still much needed for the game to return. But does anyone have a tentative time frame on when the game will be up and running? I love the game and would be willing to pay more to play.

I've been rolling this around in my head for a week now and here's what is making the most noise...
I keep seeing this game as a Facebook game. I've been playing Facebook games for several years now. Companies such as Zynga or Kixeye are making a killing. A Killing!
I see SpiritWars as a Facebook game. People log on and play for free. The game is free... free.... free... UNLESS, you want to speed things up... and apparently, a LOT of people do! Paying for "time" seems to be extremely popular and I don't see why the concept can't be applied to SW...
SO, everyone downloads the game and starts playing... as you play, you earn rating points... like before... however, now these rating points have an effect on your spirits. Everyone STARTS with the same deck... like the old Freebie deck. As your rating improves, your available spirits increase... Perhaps... 10 different levels of available spirits... With each level you gain, you have more spirits to use... and each level offers more valuable spirits.
You can spend HOURS... DAYS... WEEKS... MONTHS... even YEARS playing the game for FREE... gaining (and losing) rating points as you go... Increasing your level as you proceed... increasing the available spirits as you proceed...
OR...
You can BUY your way up the rankings! By purchasing "rating points", you automatically have access to the higher level spirits. With this type of model, RATING POINTS would be the "currency" of the game... You can WIN them, or you can buy them. You can spend 6 months gaining enough points (playing 10-20 games a day) to reach level... 5 (and accessing much better spirits than a level 1).. OR you can purchase rating points and bounce yourself up to level 5 in minutes. OR spend MORE and max out to level 10. Gaining these rating points, while awesome at first, will depend on your ability to play the game... because you can LOSE rating points! The number of rating points you lose would depend on your opponent. THe LOWER the level of your opponent, the MORE points you lose... the HIGHER the level of your opponent... the FEWER the points lost....
Of course, if a Level 8 player falls below the required points needed for level 8, they would become level 7 (and lose access to the Level 8 spirits). They could work hard to get the points back and regain their previous rank.... or they could purchase them...
Regardless, the important thing is, anyone can achieve a higher level.... through HOURS of gameplay (free)... or through paying money, money. money... instantly. The ADVANTAGE to playing your way up, is understanding your spirits... seeing different strategies as you go.... learning how and when and why to use certain spirits... so that when you start playing with the "big boys" (or girls), you are prepared for what is coming! If you BUY your way up the ladder... you might have the same spirits as the person who slaved at their keyboard for hours on end, but you will NOT have the experience... you will not have the time designing endless decks of various cards... with constantly changing spirits... you would be like... a 16-year old kid sitting in a Ferrari.... racing a seasoned 35-year old veteran street racer in the same car.... Sure..... the kid MIGHT win, but I'd put my money on the Vet any day!
So.... to recap....
Everyone starts the game at the same Level. Level 1. Everyone has access to the Level 1 spirits. These are the basic spirits... like the old free version. PLENTY of spirits to play the game in a multitude of ways!
As you progress, you gain rating points. More points if you play (and win) against a higher level, less points if you beat someone lower ranked. You would lose points in a similar fashion.
As you gain points, you gain Levels. Each level "unlocks" new spirits for your deck. I'm not even going to try to list spirits, but those who know the game understand what I'm talking about. THe higher your level, the better the spirits you unlock. THe number of spirits you unlock should fluctuate with the levels.... Level 2 unlocks, say, 10 new spirits. Level 3 might unlock 20 new spirits. Level 6 might just be MORE spirits you already unlocked... Level 8 might only be ONE new spirits... but what a sweet spirit it would be... Each level could have a mix of spirits.. or maybe some of the levels are SPECIFIC types of spirits (ie. all Woodland). The less desirable would come at the lower levels, the more desirable at the higher levels.
You gain levels by competing against another player.... or through tournaments...
OR you can BUY your rating points!
The important thing is, each player should have the SAME opportunity to have the SAME spirits. Either by playing for them, or buying them.
Of course, you could ALSO have "special" spirits that can only be WON in a tournament.... OR... after a period of time... they are available for purchase! Once you WIN or BUY the "specials" you can NOT lose them. THey are yours forever... regardless of whether you lose levels (and access to "leveled" spirits).
Migrations? Absolutely! Events? Sure! There is NO reason why the same type of events should not affect decks in the same way as before! Events affect low levels and high levels in the same way.... the overall AFFECT, however, should be determined by your level.... GOOD events are even BETTER for higher levels... BAD events have a SMALLER impact on LOWER levels....
After playing Battle Pirates on Facebook for 2 years (Kixeye), I have achieved a VERY high status level. THere are not many players who can compete with me... EXCEPT the ones who have spent a GREAT deal of money (or even more time). There are people who have spend THOUSANDS of dollars to get to where I am. It took me 2 years. It took them 10 minutes. DO I feel bad about that? NO! Not at all! If it wasn't for people like them, I wouldn't have the game to pay! I just find it more.... satisfying.... to EARN my rank. People with larger disposable incomes can spend their money how they want! I just happen to believe they will want to spend it on SpiritWars... especially if they want to compete with the heavy hitters...
Which of course, leads us back to my original though... SpiritWars needs to be a Facebook game. For this model to succeed, the most important thing is a LARGE player base. Not hundreds of players. That won't do. Not thousands of players. THink big. Facebook opens the door to HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS... or even MILLIONS of players! If ONE MILLION people register to play SpiritWars... what percentage of people will want to pay to unlock better spirits? Get that number in your head and multiply it by $20... or $50... or $100 dollars... I'm telling you... there is a HUGE potential for ENORMOUS amounts of money to be made...
It's difficult for a lot of people to commit to a "monthly" charge. Some months are better than others... some months are just BUSY and less time is available to play.... some months are filled with vacation time... some months see a birth of a child or the loss of a loved one... regardless, committing to a monthly fee is just inconvenient and no longer something people want to do! Let people play at their own pace! Some will want to earn it by playing every night for hours on end. Some will want instant gratification and access to better spirits overnight!
That's my 2 cents... don't spend it all in one place! Keep it free... and make a ton of money!
People will PAY to save TIME!

Facebook could work. I still think trading has to be worked in one way or another to maximize fun/profit.

Before you can choose between business models -- indeed, before you can even *define* them -- you must first necessarily define the game model. The two concepts are intimately intertwined.

For example, if memory serves, you currently have two game models defined (I'll use the term "league" for ease of reference, though that may turn out to not be the most readily applicable term):

- Free to play league: No ratings. No trading. No fatalities. No victory migrations. No activity migrations. No population events. Basically, a static, neutral environment.
- Paid league: Ratings system. Trading enabled. Fatalities enabled. Victory migrations. Activity migrations. Population events. A dynamic environment, where players' ratings, as well as their kingdoms, are in a constant state of flux.

I would purport that this list of available league types is insufficient if it's your intention to attract a larger and more varying customer base. For example, I'm quite confident that there are a significant number of potential players who would balk at the notion that they may pay money to play your game and earn spirits only to have those spirits taken away from them, either by the game or by either players. Indeed, some players might object to the existence of any sort of kingdom alterations at all, preferring an environment in which all players used the same kingdom at all times, but with ratings enabled -- a level playing field, if you will. And so forth.

Thus I propose that you consider widening your approach. Consider having a variety of league types, running at varying intervals, configured with varying rule sets, perhaps even charging for differing costs depending on what's being offered. Title them appropriately, make it extremely clear what's enabled and what's disabled for each league and how each feature functions, and charge for membership in each league separately. Then, players can pick and choose which leagues are for them.

Examples of leagues for your consideration:

- Level Playing Field: Limited duration, rated league. All players start with identical kingdoms of spirits; these kingdoms never vary from one another under any circumstances. (There could be population events, but these would need to be identical for all players.)

- No Trade League: Limited duration, rated league. Victory and activity migrations enabled. Fatalities enabled. Trading NOT enabled. Thus, players' kingdom makeups are solely dependent upon individual performance, with a healthy dash of luck.

- Trade Only League: Limited duration, rated league. Migrations and fatalities NOT enabled. Trading enabled. Herein, players' kingdom makeups are determined solely by trade. (More interesting might be to restrict trading to only the first week of play.)

From here, I'm sure you can imagine all sorts of fun variants for leagues. A one week long "elimination league": where after N losses, players are eliminated; victory migrations are significantly increased; and the winner, rather than being determined by rating, would be the player with the largest kingdom at the end of the week. A one day long "random league": where each game, rather than using decks built from kingdoms, players are instead assigned a random assortment of spirits to play with, perhaps leveraging many of the new spirits of a recent or upcoming expansion. And so forth.

Each league -- or "event", if short enough in duration -- can cost a fee. From there, the financial model is readily extrapolated. Sell credits and spend credits on league memberships and event participations. Or charge directly. Or both. But before you can establish a sound and practical business model, I would implore you to give some serious thought to your game model. They are inseparable; and you have a tremendous opportunity here to accommodate a much greater berth of potential customers.

Hello everyone, not sure if any of you remember me, my SW Members name was Kevin (not to be confused with kevincscott).

I used to play SpiritWars a lot starting back in the "Trade" days in the late 1990's. I was an annual subscriber a few hours after playing my first game and member up until the end. I was 3rd on the list of most games played with over 5000 games played.

I'm excited to hear of the possible revival of SpiritWars. To this day, it is still my favorite game I have ever played. So far, I agree and shared the same opinions of what most of you have said. With that being said, I definitely think there are a few things that might need to be changed to be successful in this day and age that I will go into shortly.

I'VE PLAYED A LOT OF CCG/TCG's ON THE INTERNET AND ALMOST ALL OF WHAT I MENTION/SUGGEST HERE IS THE SAME TYPE OF MODEL USED IN MOST OF THE SUCCESSFUL ONLINE CCG's.

BUSINESS MODEL

SPIRITWARS IN 2013 AND BEYOND

Games were too slow or took too long
Players didn't like losing spirits (members version issue)
Second turn advantage (imbalanced)

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GENERATING INCOME/REVENUE

Card Packs

Energy booster - 4 Credits or 500g - contains 6 energy spirits, with 1 from each homeland (5 common, 1 uncommon and no rare/ultra rare).
Basic Booster - 10 Credits or 2,000g - contains 15 basic/core spirits, i.e. - released at game launch (12 common, 3 uncommon and no rare/ultra rare). People probably won't buy this pack with Credits, but that's ok, it's just a starter pack with some of the basic spirits.
The Awakening (1st expanion) - 40 Credits or 10,000g - contains 15 spirits from the Awakening expansion set (10 common, 4 uncommon, 1 rare/ultra rare).
Silver Pack - 30 Credits or 7,500g - contains 15 spirits from the all expansions excluding the 3 most recent expansions (10 common, 4 uncommon, 1 rare/ultra rare).
Expansion Set #2 - 50 Credits or 20,000g - contains 15 spirits from the 2nd expansion set (10 common, 4 uncommon, 1 rare/ultra rare).
Gold Pack - 40 Credits or 10,000g - contains 15 spirits from the all expansions excluding the 2 most recent expansions (10 common, 4 uncommon, 1 rare/ultra rare).
Expansion Set #3 - 60 Credits or 25,000g - contains 15 spirits from the 3rd expansion set (10 common, 4 uncommon, 1 rare/ultra rare).
Platinum Pack - 50 Credits or 20,000g - contains 15 spirits from the all expansions excluding the most recent expansion (10 common, 4 uncommon, 1 rare/ultra rare).
Expansion Set #4 (current expansion) - 80 Credits - contains 15 spirits from the 4th expansion set (10 common, 4 uncommon, 1 rare/ultra rare).

Armor (x) - Unit blocks (x) amount of melee damage. Does not block spells or ranged and magical attacks. Armor above 1 should be very rare.
Pierce (x) - Ignore (x) armor.
Resistance (x) - Unit blocks (x) amount of damage from magical attacks and/or spells.
Spell Penetratation (x) - Ignore (x) resistance.
Sweeping Strike (x) - Attacks also hit enemy units adjacent to both attacker and defender for (x) damage.
Spell Penetratation (x) - Ignore (x) resistance.
Disease (x) - Any unit damaged by a unit with disease ability has all healing received reduced by 1 until the debuff wears off after X turns.
Movement (x) - Unit temporarily gains +X movement range when in its homeland. For example, Stygian Rats with +1 Movement would get +1 movement range if it is moving from Darklands to any other space. If it lands in Darklands again in the future, it will regain the buff.
Thorns (x) - Any unit damaging another unit with the Thorns ability will take (x) amount of damage in addition to attack damage from the defending unit. This might be an ability found commonly on Plants and work similar to a defender spirit but could work against all attacks even when not defending or be a good counter for First Strike ability.
Regenerate (x) - A free and automatic heal at the end of each round.

Cleanse - Removes all debuffs from a spirit.
Rust (x) - Removes (1/2/all) Armor from a spirit.
Dispel Enchantment - Dispels an enchantment.
Dispel All - Dispels all enchantments.

Tailwinds - Increases the movement range of all spirits (friendly and enemy) by +1. This effect lasts 2 rounds.

Dense Fog - Reduced the vision of all spirits (friendly and enemy) by 1, this effect can not reduce vision to 0. This effect lasts 3 rounds.

Tournaments

Standard - 2k-10k gold or 2-5 Credits - Players use their own decks with gold award to players finishing in the top X%. This will be a big advantage to players with the strongest decks and won't be as popular with newer players.
Sealed - Varies - In sealed tournaments, players get to open 4 packs to use in the tournament. Players can be provided with 6 random common energy from each homeland to make sure their decks are playable. Players will get 60 cards from the packs, plus the 30 basic energy, so this should be plenty of cards to make a deck with.

A Sealed Awakening Tournament would have an entry fee of 5,000g and players will open 4 Awakening packs for the tournament, but the players do not get to keep any of the cards opened in the packs, they just get to play for the gold.

In addition, any player who wishes to keep the cards can pay an entry fee of 20,000g or 160 Credits (the cost of 4 Awakening packs) and will get to keep all the cards they open. So essentially they will buy 4 packs of cards and get to enter the tournament for free. The player must decide to pay the entry fee before seeing which cards are in the sealed packs of course.

Each player will get a completely random set of cards from each pack they open (i.e. - each player won't get the same cards as other tournament participants, so there will be a lot of variation of decks from player to player).
Themed - 2k-10k gold - All players are provided with the same themed population of cards and have to make a deck out of it. Same as the themed events ran in SpiritWars in the past.

Draft - 2k-10k gold - Drafts are 4 player tournaments. Draft Tournaments start with a drafting phase. Each player is shown a pack of 15 cards and picks a card from this pack touse to build their dungeon (deck). All 4 players will be viewing a different pack at the start and they are the only ones that can see the pack initially. After they pick 1 card that pack is rotated to the next player and they get to choose a card from the 14 cards remaining in the pack that was passed to them. The packs rotate around until all 15 cards are picked. Then a new pack is given to each player and the process repeats. You open 3 packs this way (3 complete rounds of drafting). Once you have picked your 45 cards you build your deck. Your deck must be at least 25 cards and can have any of the cards you drafted. Once each player has submitted their army, players will play a match-play "head-up" tournament similar to US sports playoffs. These tournaments can be either single or double elimination.

During the draft phase, in each of the 3 rounds players are given ~15 seconds to make picks for the first few cards of each pack, then 10 seconds each to pick the remaining cards each round. The drafting portion should take about 8 minutes total, but is extremely fun, so time flies. The entire draft tournament should be completed in less than an hour, closer to 45 minutes.

Other Enhancements

Extra Dungeons - Allow players to purchase extra dungeon slots (saved dungeons). For example, when SW is relaunched, let's say each player can save up to 2 dungeons by default. This enhancement would allow players to buy additional dungeon slots. Allow a couple to be purchased with gold, but require Credits to unlock even more.
Campaigns (Scenarios) - Assuming an AI can be programmed, allow players to unlock campaigns in which they fight against a computer opponent in great ancient battles or against raid bosses. Completing campaigns can reward gold, a unique spirit, etc.
Experience or Gold Boosts - Assuming an experience/leveling system is implemented, allow players to gain experience or gold at an increased rate. For example, +50-100% experience for 2 weeks or X games, +50-100% gold for 2 weeks or X games.

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@ Neo Pain... I think I agree with just about everything you've said in you last message.

: Neo Pain October 22, 2012, 08:20:50 AM

Free to play. This is by far becoming one of the most popular concepts in gaming now. League of Legends is the BIGGEST online game... bigger than WoW because it is free to play. They make their money on non game impacting sales. They (and I) agree that if you can use money to buy things it shouldn't be to give yourself an advantage over those who cannot afford to buy shinies. Even as I say that i could see selling small packs of cards with maybe up to uncommon rarity (like MtG). Cards that would help build a deck but not be game changers in themselves.

I think free-to-play (f2p) is the best way to go as well. I think one thing that hurt SW before was that the free-side and member's side were completely alienated from each other. I've played a lot of League of Legends over the past few years, although I haven't played it much lately (I think I last played about 6 months ago), nevertheless, LoL is a great game with a great business model and they've been extremely successful with a free-to-play model.

One thing I wasn't clear on was... are you suggesting a) that f2p players can buy cards up to uncommon rarity (and allowing paying players to get rare/ultra rare in their packs); -OR- b) only paying players can buy packs, but only with common and uncommon?

I suggested allowing paying players to buy all packs, but f2p players would be limited to using an in-game psuedo currency (e.g. - gold) to purchase packs, but limit the f2p players to only the older cards (don't allow them to purchase cards from the most recent expansion packs. The gold that f2p players could earn would need to take a while to acquire, but not an eternity. For example, the most basic pack might take a ~6 hours of playing to earn enough gold. Some of the better packs would cost 2x/5x/10x/20x more, thereby requiring roughly 12/20/40/80 hours of game play or more just to earn a pack. These same packs would be available for purchase via real currency for a fee of $2-$7 (depending on which pack) or something like that and be the only players able to get the most recent expansion spirits as they aren't available right away for purchase by f2p players (until 6 months later?).

This would allow f2p players to remain competitive, although they'd have to play a ton of games to earn the gold to purchase the cards. Having a large base of players playing a ton of games is a good thing for everyone. They wouldn't have immediate access to the new shinies of course, but it shouldn't handicap them. New expansion spirits shouldn't be more powerful or anything, although there would be more synergy opportunities.

: Neo Pain October 22, 2012, 08:20:50 AM

League of Legends sale the new champions and different skins that are available for all the champions. But if you are like me and are monetarily challenged then you can earn in game "money" to buy champions. And even if you don't buy them all you still get opportunities to play them thanks to there being a "free" rotation of the champions you can use. Sooner or later you can play everyone.

Again, I agree. This is similar to what I mentioned above about f2p players not having immediate access to cards. League of Legends definitely has a great setup with their weekly rotation of champions. This could definitely be applied to SpiritWars. I would suggest leaving out all the ultra rares of course, but maybe have a weekly rotation of 10 spirits (9 uncommon, 1 rare) randomly chosen from all expansions except the most recent one, or maybe even better yet, a couple from each homeland.

: Neo Pain October 22, 2012, 08:20:50 AM

I think the biggest problem we will have this go around will be competing in an instant gratification world. Many of these games nowadays are short quick and simple. And you either win or lose in that same quick manner. As we all know SW often is not a quick process. However just winning was enough for most of us. Or having a great match. And then the victory mig was always nice as well. We have to make sure that win or lose the game will keep people's attention.

Once again, I agree. :) I think the game will definitely need to be sped up.

: Neo Pain October 22, 2012, 08:20:50 AM

Possibly offer an in game currency that you receive. A lot on win... half as much with a loss.

I think I'd make it less than half for a loss, or implement a system similar to League of Legends that only gives full credit to both players if the game lasts a certain period of time (24 min in LoL I believe). Something like this would need to be implemented to deter win-trading or players quitting the second they fall behind. Maybe a penalty for players quitting early too.

: Neo Pain October 22, 2012, 08:20:50 AM

That way people with not as much money can still purchase in game content... just slower. Biggest thing is making sure to make it so money bought services has little impact the played game... i.e. he who has the most money can't just just buy the best deck.

This is a very important point! I've seen a lot of games that claim to be free-to-play, but in reality they are pay-to-win and f2p players have absolutely no chance no matter how good they are or how long they've been playing. Pay-to-Win games, games that offer way too much of an advantage to paying players, always fail in the end because it's never about skill, it's about who spends the most money that determines the outcome of games.

: Neo Pain October 22, 2012, 08:20:50 AM

But another thing is content would have to be put out on a regular basis. To keep the game fresh and evolving. In a way almost like M:tG. Up population sizes and see where we go. That was always one of the things I enjoyed doing... creating a deck out of all the chaos.

Deinitely. Release new content every month or two if possible, not necessarily

I suggested raids, scenarios, expansion packs, etc. earlier in this thread. Those are very common and popular with online CCG's. I would try to spread content releases out as much as possible instead of dropping huge patches of new content all at once.

For example...

Week #5 - Release new scenario pack
Week #10 - Release some raids
Week #15 - Release expansion pack (30-50 cards)
Week #20 - Release more scenarios
etc.

I had some other ideas that I wanted to throw out there, but I don't want to turn this into a suggestion thread. I tried to keep a lot of the suggestions/input I posted in this thread relevant to the business model (such as revenue, attracting and retaining players, important changes that I feel are needed to bring SpiritWars up-to-date with other CCG's in 2013 and beyond). As Lyn mentioned, this game was launched back in the late 1990's when the internet was still new and people were connecting via dial-up modems.

I've moved some of my other suggestions which aren't as important to the business model (such as achievements, changes to the maps, etc) to the Suggestions (http://spiritwars.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0) section of the forums.

Awesome stuff Kevin... a very nice long read and many MANY thoughts that I mirror and have been trying to put to paper... but you said it much better than I could have.

One thing I wasn't clear on was... are you suggesting a) that f2p players can buy cards up to uncommon rarity (and allowing paying players to get rare/ultra rare in their packs); -OR- b) only paying players can buy packs, but only with common and uncommon?

That the Rare/Ultra Rare spirits not be available to purchase in packs. It goes back to the part where I would not like seeing it turn into he would has the most money has all the best spirits. Common and Uncommon spirits are what build a beck. And more often than not they are what win it.

: Neo Pain December 31, 2012, 07:24:43 PM

That the Rare/Ultra Rare spirits not be available to purchase in packs. It goes back to the part where I would not like seeing it turn into he would has the most money has all the best spirits. Common and Uncommon spirits are what build a beck. And more often than not they are what win it.

@Neo Pain, I think we're on the same page still if I understand your concerns. I don't want to see people running around with overpowered decks that they purchased. I think it would be silly if people had decks with Council of Generals x3, Drylands Palace x5, Pyramid x5, Fixed Catapult, Lilith, Ballista, Catapult, Arabian Knights x5, Sicilian Knights x5, etc. Heck, I don't want to see anyone ever with those kinds of decks whether they purchased it or earned it via free-to-play, unless it's some kind of special event/tournament or an optional game type.

One way that some games avoid this (over-powered dungeons full of uber-cards) is by limiting the number of rare/legendary cards allowed per deck, or a rating system (star ratings on cards). The only constraint SpiritWars had was that some cards that were allowed only 1 copy per dungeon, but nothing more was needed due to negative and loss migrations. Some system might be needed however if we move away from migrations, which I think will be necessary if SpiritWars goes with a free-to-play ("freemium") business model.

I liked the Trade version, but I think the final Member's Non-Trading version was better because dungeons were a lot less over-powered. I used to love getting a repop, especially the global repops. In trade, I remember people having multiple dieties, 10 archers in every deck, War Chant x5, etc. While it was fun sometimes, you always saw the same dungeons and spirits. I think the games were a lot more strategic (and therefore more fun) in the non-trading version where the dungeons weren't on steriods.

I realize that not everyone might know or remember what spirits were labeled "rare" and "ultra rare". I built a large spreadsheet a long time ago for SpiritWars with every spirits information. After the game went offline, I was considering trying to rebuild it when it was offline for some time and accessed the spirit database. The only information in there that I don't think was posted online anywhere was the rarity and distribution frequency of each spirit.

Out of the 506 spirits in the game, 73 (14%) were "common", 177 (35%) were "uncommon", 170 (34%) were "rare" and 86 (17%) were "ultra rare". Some of the "rares" and "ultra rares" in SpiritWars weren't over-powered or even very desirable cards by any means, for example - Armasi Henchman, Nubian Slaves, Vestal Priestess, Alesian Lookout, Restoration, Treacherous Virgin, etc.

In addition to rarity, each card had a distribution frequency associated with it, so even some of the common cards weren't really common. Here's a few of the "common" cards with low distribution frequencies - Bog Monster, Bison, Arctic Bear, Apostasy, Dragonbane.

The only reason I'm mentioning this is to make sure we're using the same nomenclature. A lot of the "rare" and "ultra rare" spirits aren't very over-powered and some of them are very weak.

Anyways, I think you need to allow people to get "rare" and "ultra rare" cards from buying packs. I believe the chance of collecting one of the really powerful cards is the main reason that people will want to spend money ($$) on the game. I think these packs should also be available to free-to-play players, but it should cost in-game currency (gold) that takes a while to earn.

The only cards I was suggesting that weren't available to free-to-play players would be all the cards from the newest expansion set(s). Each new expansion set should include the same distribution of common/uncommon/rare/ultra rares, so when a paying player buys a new pack, they're only getting 1 rare per pack (with a very small chance of it being extra rare). Or maybe even have only 5 cards in a pack with no guarantee of one of them being a rare, for example - 3 common, 1 uncommon, 1 uncommon(75%)/rare(17%)/ultra rare(8%).

By the way, here's a list of the spirits that are categorized as "rare" and "ultra rare"...

RARE SPIRITS (170)

ENERGY (25)

Darkwizard's Crypt, Moonlit Tomb, Vampire's Castle
Drylands Palace, Merchant Caravan, Pyramid, Tower of Babel
Aqueduct, Coliseum, Gladiator Academy, Mt. Vesuvius
Augean Stables, Greek Monastery, Minotaur's Cave, Mountain Stream, Mt. Etna
Isle of the Dead, Mineral Springs, Tethys' Well, Trading Post, Waterfall
Druid's Grove, Farmers Market, Hibernian Alehouse, Hibernian Shepherd

COMBAT (74)

Ancient WitchChild, Armasi Assassin, Armasi Henchman, Crimson Wizard, Dark Adept, Dark Enchantress, Dark Scholar, Dark Witches, Hydra, Lord of the Dead, Nemesis, Phantom Horde, Shadow Blades, Vlad the Impaler, Werewolf
Charax Sorceress, Fixed Catapult, Lilith, Mounted Bowmen, Nile Crocodiles, Nubian Slaves, Parthian Archers, Parthian Warlord, Ramses, Sultan of Persia, Unseen Stalker, Weapons Master
Apulian Archers, Apulian Priest, Bacchus, Ballista, Catapult, Centurion, Cleric of Apollo, Hannibal's Elephants, Pavian Alchemist, Pavian Merchant, Praetorian Guard, Priest of Mars, Roman Horse-Archers, Roman Shield Bearer, Spartacus, Venal Governor, Vestal Priestess
Argonaut Archers, Beastmaster, Centaurs, Cyclops, Jason, Priest of Vulcan, Rock Troll, Spartan Archers, Spartan Engineers
Alesian Lookout, Atlantis Shaman, Banshee, Berserker, Crossbowmen, Frost Giant, Savarian Wizard, Saxon Knights, Siren, Valkyries, Viking Pillagers
Elf Ranger, Elven Blades, Elven Princess, Elven Sorceress, Giant Hedgehog, Hippolyta, Sylvan Druid, Unicorn, Verdant Thicket, Woodland Sylph

DEFENDER (17)

Necromancer's Tower, Ogre's Lair
Flaming Wall, Sumerian Citadel
Hangman's Gallows, Roman Fortress, Temple of Pluto
Dragon's Cave, Highland Bandits, Highlands Fortress
Sea Dragon's Lair
Amazon Temple, Elven Outpost, Giant Spider Web, Hesperides Garden, Living Thorns, Tree Fort

SPELL (54)

Anthrax, Darkwizard's Spellbook, Gluttony, Graft & Corruption, Under the Red Sky, Vampire's Kiss, Warped Terrain
Antediluvian Curse, Column of Fire, Council of Generals, Emancipation, Eye for an Eye, Fortify Defenders, Hero's Quest, Internal Power, Pacifism, Prisoner of War, Tomb of the Kings, Whispering Sphinx
Age of Reason, Cupid's Arrow, Devout Prayers, Exorcism, Fall of the Mighty, Hasten Fighters, Hasten Romans, Holy Light, Master's Wisdom, Military Genius, Rage of Perseus, Sicilian Executioner, Spyglass
Advanced Architecture, Aegean Sea Tempest, Conscription, Earthquake, Love Letter, Oath of Fealty, Recurved Bows, Stone Masons
Alesian Frigate, Bolt of Lightning, Mermaid's Prize, Mjolnir, Rampaging Colossus, Treachery, War Chant
Clinging Vines, Harvest Time, Kiss of Life, Natural State, Pandora's Box, Restoration, Treacherous Virgin

ULTRA RARE SPIRITS (86)

ENERGY (22)

Armasi Ferrier, Decrepit Mill, Dragons Graveyard
Desert Scavengers, Library of Alexandria, Nubian Refugees, Persian Waterwheel
Apulian Smithy, Arundel Mill
Diamond Mine, Mounted Hunter, Olympic Vineyards, Oracle, Vulcan's Forge
Alesian Harbor, Itinerant Merchant, Nereid's Spring, Saxon Seer
Forest Chapel, Mts. of the Moon, Sacred Oak, Sacred Woods

COMBAT (40)

Circe, Fallen Paladin, Grendel, Medusa, Unholy Priestess
Bedouin Saboteur, Osirus, Priest of Karnak, Sphinx
Apollo's Seamstress, Cupid, Diana, Venus
Achilles, Ajax, Alexander the Great, Athena, Cronos, Dwarven Slaver, Dwarven Smith, Guldar, Hector, Hercules, Storm Mage, Vulcan
Baldur the Good, Beowulf, Moat Monster, Orion, Saxon Bard, Sea Dragon, Thor, Viking Archer
Ash Druid, Bird-Headed Monster, Forest Dragon, Hibernian Fletcher, Hibernian Hares, Lemming, Pan

DEFENDER (3)

Forest of the Impaled
Dwarven Fortress
Guardian Angel

SPELL (21)

Acid Rain, Ambush, Grim Reaper, Poisoned Chalice, Ragnarok, Suicide, Witchcraft
Scorched Earth, Spoils of War, Tribute
Aphrodite's Dream, Jubilee, Juno's Betrayal
Funeral Procession, Stone Touch, Thunder of Zeus
Lost at Sea, Meteor Shower, Sunken Warship
Pagan Sacrifice, Purify Waters

I could see a pack having a chance for a rare... or some deal where with every 2-3 packs you buy you get a rare. But the problem there still is if you don't put out enough new spirits a person with enough money can basically buy their self an amazingly powerful dungeon.

And I would, if at all possible, avoid a scenario where he who has the most money has all the toys.

But you also have to make money too.

I could see having packs of cards that are only flatlands/drylands, or other combinations like that. I dunno... it will be a work in progress... and it will need to be fluid with the current gaming situations.

But first I hope Mom is having some luck with a programmer.

: Psyclone January 01, 2013, 11:25:21 AM

I liked the Trade version, but I think the final Member's Non-Trading version was better because dungeons were a lot less over-powered.

I agree that the "non-trading" version tended to diminish overall deck prowess. However, I disagree with your overall point -- merely by the fact that ultimately, there was no such thing as a non-trading version.

If memory serves: after every battle, there was a chance that a spirit would migrate from the loser's deck directly into the winner's. The probability of this event was inversely proportional to the ratings disparity between winner and loser. Thus, players who manipulated the ratings system (golly I sure hated those guys!) could sandbag and potentially farm powerful cards in this manner -- especially since with a low rating, they'd get to go second. This all of course blithely ignoring the potential for players to throw games to one another in order to attempt to instantiate an automated trade between them. Or creating multiple accounts for similar purposes. These sorts of nefarious activities were against the rules, but the only enforcement was manual, by administrators.

Thus, I raise: there should be a truly non-trading version where deck migrations never, ever occur. Only then can the environment truly said to be fair, insofar as that everyone's card pool is determined solely by the fate of global migrations and the like. (And these, too, should be ratings independent, if they weren't already.)

@Xaxyx... That's not trading, that's exploiting.

As for migrations, I also believe they should be eliminated. I think the negative migrations were a huge turn-off for people and probably led to a lot of /ragequit when someone had a few bad migs in a row.

I don't think the old system/model of population migrations will work. I think the best way to go is selling packs of cards like almost every other CCG. Give players the option to either buy or earn cards. No migrations between players and no loss of cards.

: Neo Pain January 03, 2013, 09:20:03 PM

I could see a pack having a chance for a rare... or some deal where with every 2-3 packs you buy you get a rare. But the problem there still is if you don't put out enough new spirits a person with enough money can basically buy their self an amazingly powerful dungeon.

And I would, if at all possible, avoid a scenario where he who has the most money has all the toys.

But you also have to make money too.

I could see having packs of cards that are only flatlands/drylands, or other combinations like that. I dunno... it will be a work in progress... and it will need to be fluid with the current gaming situations.

But first I hope Mom is having some luck with a programmer.

Neo, I've played a lot of different CCG's. Some of them are pretty good at minimizing the Pay-to-Win (P2W) scenario of "he who has the most money has all the toys".

Remember, 256 out of 506 of the spirits currently in SW are Rare or Ultra Rare. As long as you limit how easily/quickly someone can earn/accrue rares, then I don't think it will get out of hand. Even if someone can buy a pack that is guaranteed to contain 1 rare/ultra card, they'd still have to buy hundreds of packs (probably ~$1000) to get them all. Also, remember that currently a lot of the rare cards aren't that great/powerful, so getting an ultra rare card doesn't mean that you're automatically getting an extremely powerful card like Diana/Baldur/Grim Reaper, you might get a weak ultra rare like Tribute/Sunken Warship/Forest Chapel.

Of course, as a business, you can't limit how many packs of cards someone buys with real money. If someone wants to spend $500-$1000 hundreds of packs of cards, they're going to end up with almost every card in the game.

One way some CCG's keep things from getting out of hand is by offering different game options/rulesets. I'm not one of them, but there are A LOT of CCG players out there that love playing with uber decks filled with rares/ultra rares/dieties/etc. If we're talking about rebuilding a game based on hundreds or thousands of players being online at a time, then you can easily offer multiple options for rulesets/game-types. For example...

Beginner Ruleset - 30+ card deck, limit 4 Rares
Limited Ruleset - 30+ card deck, limit 2 Ultra Rares, 6 Rares
Open Ruleset - 30+ card deck, no card limits
Weekly (Rotating) Ruleset - Varying rulesets, eg - "no archers", "no dieties", "Open but no Ultra Rares", or maybe a theme

I think the other thing is that a lot of CCG's are now offering is tournaments. Drafts and Sealed Pack tournaments are extremely popular in most CCG's that I've played and use a population of cards unique to that tournament. Other tournaments can be something like the old themed tournaments SW used to run, or use your own spirits but various different rulesets.

These types of options (rulesets and tournaments) will allow players to play the types of games that they prefer.

We want to encourage players to purchase card packs. The only way people are going to be interested in purchasing card packs is to get the rare and ultra rare spirits.

: Psyclone January 07, 2013, 07:28:58 AM

@Xaxyx... That's not trading, that's exploiting.

Tomato, tomato. I recall at one point they even put some sort of "equivalent trading value" rule in place, to try to prevent players from ripping other players off and/or giving away valuable cards away by mistake. Any sort of trade mechanic that requires so many crutches and scotch tape to be held together is probably better off ceasing to exist altogether.

As for migrations, I also believe they should be eliminated. I think the negative migrations were a huge turn-off for people and probably led to a lot of /ragequit when someone had a few bad migs in a row.

Absolutely. Losing a match already has a stigma attached: you lose rating points. To also butcher that player's deck is just salt in the wound. Conversely, a model wherein a player's primary source of intelligently improving his deck is attempting to defeat players whose decks contain the cards you're seeking is poor indeed.

Speaking from my own experience: I recall getting a Unicorn (or something) in a migration. Astounded at my good fortune (it fit my deck perfectly) I happily stuffed it in my deck, immediately played a game, lost -- and lost the Unicorn.

And /ragequit.

I don't think the old system/model of population migrations will work. I think the best way to go is selling packs of cards like almost every other CCG. Give players the option to either buy or earn cards. No migrations between players and no loss of cards.

That's certainly a viable and proven option. Looking from the other end of the spectrum, though, we might want to be careful not to construct a model that favors or allows pay-to-win. Either that, or have multiple leagues, where one league works like CCG and the other is a purely sealed deck-like environment (either cloned kingdoms, or equivalent-value kingdoms, with no trading or migrations at all).

: Xaxyx January 07, 2013, 01:51:50 PM

Tomato, tomato. I recall at one point they even put some sort of "equivalent trading value" rule in place, to try to prevent players from ripping other players off and/or giving away valuable cards away by mistake. Any sort of trade mechanic that requires so many crutches and scotch tape to be held together is probably better off ceasing to exist altogether.

I agree. I thought the non-trade version of the game was 100x better.

I think I like the game as it was. We need no changes except random hexes each game as apposed to random maps. As much as the game irritated me at times, I always came back. It's the one game I still miss and think of every so often. Nothing is filling the void of SW. If revenue is the issue, then we should increase the monthly charge. I think it was $65 a year before. Maybe $10 or$15 a month would get us where we need to be. We need its simplicity so it increases our odds of finding a programmer.

I loved trade. And I loved having and facing powerful decks. There were some common themes but I felt like my decks were usually different than others.

At the moment I don't have the time to read all of the models--I apologize for that as I see some of the discussion here of LoL and other games; I was thinking about this game and thought of checking in today to see what was happening.

I have played a lot of these new games out there. Gamers are frustrated..are they addicted to some things and throw buckets of cash for items in games? Yes...but they are also frustrated with the same systems.

Things I've learned:
World of warcraft is/was incredibly successful. You cannot buy anything in that game that gains a performance advantage besides a subscription to play the game; I think this to be the best model.

Many flash card games exist on sites like Kongregate that limit the number of games people can play, the cards they have access to, and otherwise attempt to force the player to buy product. If you don't buy product it will take 1000s of hours to be competitive or you can never be competitive.

League of legends, is a hybrid model..however again to really get 'all' the content unlocked you must purchase at least $100-200 in goods + play 1000s of hours to unlock things. I'm kind of wondering how long League will last as after buying some content upfront--how many people keep buying more is a good question...

I don't know how much advertising brings in for games and sites, I can't imagine it being enough unless this game becomes insanely popular.

Onto where these models and what I feel what I can add to this discussion. The creator of Spiritwars is/was a brilliant guy. What Randy wrote on how creators should be compensated for their work as well as the idea of a "Level Playing Field" should really be taken to heart. Charge a reasonable subscription fee, have a mantra for people to entrust in ('i.e. we won't screw you over), and focus on marketing the game well and making sure people know what's out there.

Now thinking as a player instead of a designer, I feel the old cost structure with a working and well-received game would be a hit and is something I'd immediately buy into. Having a smaller 'demo' version so people can see what they're getting into would help give a factor of addictiveness to bring people in.

Regardless of what you do, I would just stress to not ruin it with a 'pay to win' system. Don't do things like sell booster packs and stuff. This game is far far too good for something like that.

Well..... another year comes and goes... where is the game? No one knows...
To play SpiritWars remains but a dream... I'm starting to doubt it... know what I mean?

Seriously.... I do not understand why nothing is being done to bring the game back.
Lyn, if it's a matter of money, I can understand THAT.... plain and simple, it TAKES money to make money!
You didn't create the game... you didn't program it... it's not YOUR baby! It was Randy's.
I can understand WANTING to bring it back, but you know what happens when you WANT in one hand...
If you aren't able to resurrect SpirtWars, have you considered selling it?
I doubt you'd get all that much, but it would be more than you apparently have now...
But it probably wouldn't be enough to get it back online...

But at least YOU could put SOMETHING in your pocket... and WE could play the game!

How long are you going to just sit on it? Have you given up? I used to rock my baby to sleep while I played SW late at night... a small 10-pound baby would just lay in my arms, smile at me and fade away to dreamland.... well, that baby is a ten-year old monster now and HE wants to play more than I do! It's been too long.

I'm not seeing any "updates".... I've read the abundant amount of feedback and suggestions... you've got a great game concept and a faithful, loyal base of intelligent people at your disposal... What is the hold up? I'm having a difficult time believing you can't find someone to program a simple game. It's my understanding programmers are a dime a dozen. How much money do they want to handle the project? Have you considered selling "shares" in the game? Perhaps there are 20 people on here that can cough up $1000 each for a "stake" in the company? Perhaps a programmer would accept a percentage of the first year or two? Come on... there are SO many ways to pursue this.... why is SpirtWars just festering in a dark hole?

By no means am I trying to be mean... over the years, I have come to respect you and your family! You're a genuine "nice person"... no doubt about it... but let's face it... business clearly isn't a strong point.
If you DON'T have the TIME.... and you DON'T have the MONEY.... there are other ways to make this happen... do you have a plan? How far have you taken this in the past year... or two.... or five? Are you any closer to getting the game online?

I'm sorry... it's just damned frustrating. I want to play SpirtWars. Instead, I have to go spend my game time playing BattlePirates... or Soldiers, Inc., or Candy Crush... or some other COMPLEX game that was programmed by SOMEONE... all of which are CRAP. I just can't accept that there isn't ANYONE who can do this!

I have been and always shall remain... a loyal fan of SpiritWars...

HI all lets chat! :)

SpiritWars

General Category => News => : Nat October 21, 2012, 02:21:24 AM